Now What?

HOST: The very first thing I do when I wake up is grab my phone. The white light — it blares into the darkness of the room, setting aflame the walls around me. But it’s the other colors — the blue and red that matter the most. When I went to bed, neither of the colors had reached the little black hashmark in the middle, the one marked “270” — with the two words “electoral votes” above. The outcome of the 2024 election was still unclear. I look now: the red has passed 270. 

270 electoral votes. America had a new president.

This is Rights & Wrongs, a podcast from Human Rights Watch. I'm Ngofeen Mputubwele. I am a writer, a lawyer, and a radio producer. Human Rights Watch asked me to look at human rights hotspots around the world through the eyes and ears of the people on the front lines of history.  

That front line of history? It’s all over the world. It’s in Sudan. It’s in Russia and Ukraine, in Gaza and Lebanon, on the Saudi Yemen border, in El Salvador, in China. Wherever governments or other groups are attacking human rights, that’s the front line. And the U.S. doesn’t get a pass. The historical wrongs of slavery and the attempted genocide of native peoples — people in places like Cancer Alley in Louisiana still feel that. The struggles over voting rights is real. But a few weeks ago, something changed. For better or worse, because of what happened in the U.S, all around the world, the potential trajectory of human rights has changed. And the world is watching. 

This week on Rights and Wrongs, we’re looking at human rights in the U.S., post-election, and we’re asking, Now What?

Ngofeen: Tirana Hassan, before November 5th, a lot of Americans were saying this was the most important election of their lives, and it may turn out to be just that, like actually. And so I'm curious from your perspective as executive director at Human Rights Watch, what does this election mean for human rights?

Tirana: It's, it's a hard question to answer because I don't have a crystal ball, but I can tell you that given what we have heard and what we have seen in the past, there is real reason to be worried about human rights, not only in the U. S., but also globally. I mean, during the first term, Trump pushed policies to expel asylum seekers, separate families at the U. S. Mexico border. He helped to fuel a violent insurrection to overthrow the results of a democratic election in the U.S. That's a concerning track record. On the foreign policy side, there are going to be consequences across the world. We saw on the foreign policy side in the first time that Trump was elected, that the president at the time had little respect for treaties, for multilateral institutions, or efforts to protect human rights of people living under repressive governments. He has signaled opposition to funding of humanitarian aid. And, um, after hearing the rhetoric that he's going to conduct mass deportations, uh, there's no reason to suggest that he won't be as cruel as he has promised, because essentially, he is emboldened by the popular vote.

Ngofeen: Hmm. I think a lot of Trump supporters don't take Donald Trump's language and rhetoric at face value. They say he's just being Trump. He won't do what he says he's going to do. Do you see that differently?

Tirana: I think that's an optimistic view. He has proposed policies that would weaken democratic institutions like courts, key government agencies, you know, these institutions that protect fundamental human rights.

Essentially, he is signaling that he is going to do away with the checks on presidential authority, consolidating power. These are similar statements that we have heard from rights abusing leaders abroad who have followed through. 

As Human Rights Watch, we will not be sitting back to see if this is true or not. We will be ready to respond because each of these policies that we're talking about has a devastating consequence on individuals, on their lives, and their rights. And we need to be fortifying to be in defense of those rights. People's lives depend on it. 

Ngofeen: Obviously, many, many people, me included, are still sort of absorbing the new political reality that is here and coming soon.

I'm wondering, for you, you cover so many different concerns in the world. What have been some of the ones that have come most to mind to you in these first moments since the election?

Tirana: Obviously, the idea of massive roundups of migrants and deportations, the construction of camps, you know, those sort of threats. What this is going to mean for the LGBT community for trans kids, what this is going to mean for women and women's reproductive rights and freedoms, all top of mind.

The other thing that is really worrying. is how other illiberal, uh, leaders, anti-rights leaders around the world are going to feel emboldened by this dangerous rhetoric and what happens in the United States. The Viktor Orban's, Bukele in El Salvador. You know, there are leaders around the world who have been launching these low-level assaults on human rights in democracies and the fear of a Trump presidency signaling that human rights are not important, that you can attack the institutions like the UN. These signal that everybody can do away with human rights, and the consequences of that around the world are grave, but we know their playbook. You know, the first thing that illiberal leaders want to do, they go after the most vulnerable. They'll tell you, we're here to protect your security. What does that really translate to?

Attacks on migrants. Attacks on refugees, the othering of another group. They say, we're here to protect you from, you know, moral decay. What does that mean? Attacks on the LGBT community, attacks on women's reproductive rights. And if they get away with that, then it's going after free press. It's going after political opponents, and if they get away with that, then they go after the institutions. For example, the courts. 

So we know the playbook. We know how we have to fight this. We've done it elsewhere, and we're going to need to do it in the US. And actually, you're going to need to do it globally, because we may see an acceleration at the global level.

Ngofeen: Is there sort of a playbook for the ways in which you respond? What works?

Tirana: Well firstly, we need to ensure that the U. S. is held to account globally, the same way that we have mobilized pressure around the world to hold other anti-rights leaders to account. So, you know, having this global footprint is needed now more than ever to push back against this new breed of autocrats that is rising.

So what do we need to do? First and foremost, The anti rights leaders, they thrive on misinformation and disinformation. Now, more than ever, facts matter. In Human Rights Watch, we're in the business of facts, documenting what is happening, the consequences of these damaging policies and practices, or even the rhetoric, before it is even put into action.

The facts matter. They will inform public opinion. We can get those in the press. We need to make sure that people know when their leaders, and you know, in the case of the U.S., when Trump is lying. We need to be able to point out how these damaging decisions, policies, practices are in violation of international obligations.

We have to remember international law and human rights is not some sort of choice. It is law. When you breach it, there should be consequences and what Human Rights Watch has been doing for decades now is mobilizing pressure on governments who violate their human rights obligations. 

So, you know, we know that we'll be able to use the international institutions.We're going to go and mobilize, whether it's allies of the U. S. government, whether it's those with economic ties to the U. S. government, to exercise whatever power and influence they have to change the behavior of the U.S. government. Ultimately, what we need to do is raise the cost of human rights abuses, and that's what we're good at.

Ngofeen: A lot of Human Rights Watch's staff in the US and around the world are probably demoralized by the election. What are you telling them?

Tirana: One of the things that, I think I say this because I feel it, but the path ahead under the Trump administration might feel scary and overwhelming because of who we are as individuals. You know, for many of our staff, um, for me, I'm a migrant, you know, so are many of my colleagues. And they're also worrying about their loved ones and their friends, either because of the work they do, where they live, because of their identity. I mean, often with even those who are not in the U.S., but across oceans are also worried, uh, and anticipating the fallout from the Trump presidency. The one thing for all of us at Human Rights Watch is that I am reminding my colleagues that our role is not just to stand firm and hold the line, but to show others how to uphold human rights and challenge those who threaten them.

Because we also, we have muscle memory. We are eight years smarter than we were the last time. And we have been preparing for this. It is a reality that we have been gaming out with my colleagues for months leading up to this result. So when I think about what is to come. I am reassured by one concrete fact: We have nearly 50 years of experience of dealing with dictators and autocrats and pushing back, and we are going to leverage our global footprint, not just to respond, but also to be two steps ahead and be able to stop the damage wherever we can. And we have HRW colleagues all across the world who have been facing rights abusing leaders and they are sharing their strategies with my colleagues in the U.S. The one thing I know, Ngofeen, is that there is no other place I would rather be then at HRW, working with colleagues around the world who have done this before.

Ngofeen: Tirana Hassan, thank you so much for taking this time. Thank you. Tirana Hassan is the Executive Director at Human Rights Watch.

Human Rights Watch is headquartered in New York, but it’s an international organization with offices throughout the world. I wanted to get a sense of how the election might affect the work of staff who are focused on working with American officials or on American issues.  

Tanya Greene is the director of the US program, which investigates and reports on human rights violations within the US.  

Sarah Yager is the Washington Director at Human Rights Watch. Her office works with US foreign policymakers – State Department, the Department of Defense, Congress, the White House – with the goal of getting them to help stop human rights abuses around the world. I wanted to know, how might their jobs change under the new administration? Sarah went first.  

Sarah: Well, I'm looking at this in two different ways. One is that our jobs may not change. I would like to think that the next administration will engage with us. on human rights, um, in their foreign policy. And until I have closed doors, that is my expectation and that is what I'm going to try to do. This is what Human Rights Watch does all over the world.  No matter the type of government, the extent of human rights abuses, we engage with governments trying to get them to change. 

Now, I also have to be aware, um, of what President Trump did in his last term and what he said he would like to do in this term. And I take him seriously. I take him at his word. And that means that we are going to see some foreign policy that will damage human rights. Um, and it's possible that lives will be affected in very negative ways. So I'm also planning for that possibility.

Ngofeen: Tanya, what about your job? Right now, how do you expect it might change? Like, what are you possibly anticipating?

Tanya: Well, we, um, will have to respond in the short term to some of the already announced, campaigned-upon violations that they intend to inflict on communities, including the mass detentions and deportations of immigrants, including criminalization of protests. We expect there to be a real crackdown on dissent, so we are preparing for that.

Ngofeen: Oof. So all over the world, we see authoritarian governments cracking down on migrants and on dissent. And during the US election campaign, there were increasing concerns expressed about rising authoritarianism in the US.  I’m thinking about various people in my life, and I’m wondering, Tanya, what does authoritarianism mean to someone who’s not up on political science terminology and all that kind of stuff. What does it mean, practically speaking?

Tanya: Right. I appreciate that question because that helps us figure out how to address it effectively. And autocracy is leadership of one or a very tight group. The authoritarian aspect comes after autocracy. Where you have to obey. You have to follow the rules. It's the end of your freedoms. And it's gradual. It doesn't happen overnight. Although autocrats, as we have potentially seen here, could be arguably democratically elected. So, they don't always seize power undemocratically. But they turn into authoritarian rulers.

With bits and pieces of freedoms being chipped away. So the disinformation and the prevalence of disinformation, for instance, during this election season, is a piece of what results in authoritarianism, because you don't know what to believe anymore. This whole concept of fake news is a very particular threat that is very consistent with the goal to have people just follow what you say to do. And not believe in themselves and not believe in the institutions that we've believed in. Another aspect of it is critique and criticism of institutions that have long served us, like different federal agencies, regulatory agencies, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of Education, Department of Justice.They get politicized. There's an effort, it seems that there'll be an effort to disband them. 

Vulnerable communities are targeted, picked off one by one. We've seen that, we saw that with the Dobbs decision, that whole basically 50-year effort to get to the Dobbs decision, and now the fallout, which is being described as, ‘Oh, we didn't know IVF was going to be involved in this. We didn't know abortion would lead to, you know, different other kinds of reproductive health and general maternal health and women's health implications’, but there's an argument that they did. And that is destabilizing women across the country. You have immigrants that are being picked off and targeted, LGBT communities, especially trans youth. People of color generally, uh, and as I mentioned before, squashing dissent is going to be another piece of it. So, all of these factors contribute to an authoritarian state, and you don't know necessarily that you're the frog in the pot of water that is boiling until it is boiling, and you are too. And so, part of our responsibility in Human Rights Watch is to educate people about what's happening so that we can all stand up and resist before it's too late.

Ngofeen: Sarah, I see you nodding your head through some of what Tanya, Tanya just said. What, what's going through your mind? 

Sarah: Yeah, well, everyone is affected by something that Tanya just said. It could be reproductive rights. It could be, you know, more fear of the police. It could be trans youth. It could be that you have immigrants in your family.

Most people do. And then on the foreign policy side, It's not just Trump policies that will impact people. So it's not just decisions that he makes about his foreign policy, whether it be Ukraine or Gaza or cutting off foreign aid. It's also what he does here at home that gives inspiration to others around the world that has a chilling effect to civil society, both here and around the world, and certainly empowers the authoritarian leaders that he models himself after.

And we saw when he was elected, fawning from so many of those authoritarian leaders around the world, but also rights respecting governments who sort of know which side their bread is buttered on, right? I mean, they're doing what is in their own self-interest, which I get, which is, you know, praising Trump and saying, ‘Congratulations, what a historic victory’, but I'm very worried that we're not seeing countries’ leaders, especially of rights respecting governments, express their concern and stand up for the global order. I'm hoping we will see that, you know, he's not president yet, but I'm hoping we will see that at some point because there does need to be some resistance to keep these institutions.

Tanya: It's important to keep in mind that though we have an individual who was elected president, the trends that we are concerned about are in place already and are growing and becoming more popular. And so, when Sarah talks about leaders who don't object and don't raise concerns and are very fawning and solicitous toward him, that's not just about him. That's about what's already in place. And similarly in the U.S., we have people withholding their concerns and, you know, for, you know, librarians preemptively taking books off the shelves, uh, people leaving, moving from one state to the next, trying to think about where they might be most safe in anticipation.

And so even if, you know, he were not the person, we have these trends. We had, we now, you know, we have a generation of people who think that fake news is actually a thing and that the truth is not facts and facts are not the truth. And that, that's a really deep shift, I think, in the United States, at least.

I never thought that I would see these kinds of threats materialize here. I was raised in the United States where it was always over there in some other country where there was a dictator or a strong man or somebody in charge that was violating folks’ rights so clearly, uh, undemocratically. And now we have these issues here.

And what we have to do as researchers and advocates and all the other, um, roles that are at Human Rights Watch is to hold tight to the idea that we can change this, even though there is an absolute machine on the other side. And there is, there are links between the machine: the internet, social media, et cetera, witness Mr.

Musk and his tightness with Mr. Trump. You know, there are links that are, that are going to continue to make it very difficult for us to pick this apart. But we have to.

Sarah: And to say it's not normal. So there was, you know, during the first Trump administration, I remember just constantly hearing, ‘this is not normal. This is not normal.’ And it helped. Um, we're going to need to get more creative. sharper, smarter this time around. We can't just say it's not normal and expect that things will go back to normal. Things will not go back to normal. The United States in the world, at least from my perspective, is never going back to status quo ante.

It's never going back to what we knew under George W. Bush, Obama, Biden, the first Trump administration. This is going to change how America is in the world.

Tanya: And let me just say that those other administrations are not perfect. Our democracy is not perfect. I mean, we have real problems with disenfranchisement and dispossession and an electoral college and all of the things that led to what happened here this year.

Um, the argument in part is, oh, well, he won the popular vote this time, but he didn't win it last time, even if he won it this time. And that builds, it builds. This is a, there's a cascading effect. History is made from a series of events. You know, we don't exist in a vacuum.

HRW Ad/ Tanya Lokshina: Hi. My name is Tanya Lokshina and I’m an associate director in the Europe and Central Asia division at Human Rights Watch.

I used to run our office in Moscow. But after Russia’s full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022 the government shut us down and all of the Moscow-based staff had to flee or face criminal prosecution.  We are now spread far and wide. But does that mean that we actually stopped working? Absolutely not. We’re working harder than ever before to document and expose the abuses by the Russian government at home and abroad. We do our utmost to support local partners, we have a network of sources on the ground, we continue to interview survivors of abuses and we are doing open source investigations and digital data analysis. We do this work to create a meticulous record of abuses so that eventually the perpetrators can be brought to justice.  

We cannot do this without your support. Please visit hrw dot org slash podcast slash donate. Thank you.

Ngofeen: I want to take the perspective a second for one second of someone who doesn't work in human rights. Um, I think a lot of people who care about human rights, um, are wondering now. What can we do? There's a mixture of sort of, I think some people have the reaction of like, ‘What can I do immediately?’ I think others have a reaction of like, ‘I'm frozen. There's nothing we can do’, um, and I'm sure there's reactions all in between.

What can folks do?

Tanya: First and foremost, we need to remember the adage, think globally, act locally. I think people can do a lot. I think it's important to recognize that feeling overwhelmed is okay, but it should not be paralyzing. And that also, we can contribute in lots of different places. There's not one thing that everybody should do.

So look at where you live, look at the issues that are at hand in your local, you know, school board, in your city council. Attend the meetings, see what's being discussed. I promise you it's  showing up everywhere and there are places to get involved.  If you want to do more, you can connect with local grassroots efforts on women's rights, climate change, racial justice.

There are so many issues so many groups out there doing work, and they need different types of engagement by people. Not just leaders. They need somebody who's gonna, you know, make phone calls or who's gonna put up signs or who's gonna book the room to have an event or who's gonna go speak at, you know, schools or detention centers or churches to do education for people about different issues.

There's a whole range of work that people can do. And then you can also have your State and federal representatives on speed dial so that when time comes that there's legislation to respond to, you can call, you can engage that way. I'll let Sarah make some suggestions as well.

Sarah: It's harder in the foreign policy world because Americans are so disconnected from foreign policy. But there is a role for people in the United States to play in protecting the organizations that fight for human rights. So, it's hard to say you can go do XYZ on Gaza. I think, you know, people who are involved there know what they can do, but you can be involved in protecting, for example, Human Rights Watch and its ability to continue to operate in the United States. 

There are things that need to be protected in the United States in order to also protect human rights in foreign policy, and they are civil society organizations. They are free media, the ability to protest. These are the things that make up our democracy, even if we have an authoritarian leader.

Ngofeen: I don't know if this is a big picture question or a fundamental question, but things are going to be difficult and you need some sort of engine to get you through difficult times.

I think for a lot of people that looks like hope. And so I'm curious what gives you hope or if you have another metric, what's your engine to get you through difficult times.

Sarah: Go ahead, Tayna. 

Tanya: Um, I don't really have a problem with hope. I've been engaged in struggles for justice my entire life, even as a child, being dragged here and there by my parents. But I think there are lots of ways you can get hope. You can remember that you're part of  a global community that's pushing for human rights. One problem in the United States is that we are taught that human rights don't apply to us, that it's really those other people over there in other countries that have to worry about human rights, that we're okay in the U.S. and we are now very clear that that is not the case and that we are not limited by civil rights, that we actually get the broad human rights that everyone gets.

And in thinking that way and recognizing that, I think it creates community where there might not have been such articulable community across country borders, across oceans, back and forth. We are part of an effort that goes beyond, you know, where we live right in this moment. I think you can also get hope from the fact that there are people who came before you, who fought these fights, who sang the songs, who made the effort.

I think a lot about people like Ella Baker, I think Ida B. Wells, I think about Black revolutionary struggle folks who are called civil rights leaders here, but they're actually human rights leaders, and many, many, many of them - Fannie Lou Hamer - were women, and they risked so much in the effort to ensure basic rights for people, especially black people.

And also, I think you get hope from recognizing that if you lift the water line for a little boat, all of the boats in the water rise. And that also, I think, gives us a sense that we are part of something bigger.

Ngofeen: Sarah?

Sarah: Well, two things. I mean, I will say, so I don't come from the black tradition, but those civil rights leaders, those human rights leaders are a remarkable inspiration. And I, as you talk about them, I am thinking about how I am not going to be targeted first here in this country by an authoritarian leader, by authoritarian policies. And so I want to make sure that I am keeping a close eye, and I hope everyone listening to this will do that, for vulnerable communities.

And not only help form a community around them to protect them, but also empower them because they know what they're doing. And we can hopefully use our resources, our brains, our hearts to help. I've seen people come together in really interesting ways just over the past week. So neighbors, instead of fighting about where the fence is going to be, are now locked into something that is much bigger than their own individual self-interest.

And that gives me - I, I'm, I'm less big on hope than Tanya because I, I don't know. I find it cheesy, Tanya. I can't do it.

Tanya: I can do it for the two of us. I think that it's important if you, if you don't know how to embrace hope. Like, I think that's important to own too. That doesn't mean you don't work.

Sarah: Yeah. So, so my, my sort of nuance on that and, and it probably does sound like hope to a lot of people is actually, um, the challenge. I really, I don't. like that the challenge is here, but I'm ready to take it on. And the, the hard work that's involved in that, that brings people together where you have to be sharper, smarter, get up that hill faster. That's what we're going to do. And so that, you know, whatever you want to call it, that's the thing that's keeping me going.

Ngofeen: Sarah Yager and Tanya Greene. Thank you so much.

Tanya: You're very welcome. 

Sarah: All right. Thank you both.

Ngofeen: Sarah Yager is the Washington director at Human Rights Watch. Tanya Green s the director of the U.S. program.

You’ve been listening to Rights and Wrongs, from Human Rights Watch. This episode was produced by me and Curtis Fox. Our associate producer is Sophie Soloway. Thanks also to Ifé Fatunase, Stacy Sullivan, and Anthony Gale. 

I’m Ngofeen Mputubwele. Talk to you again in two weeks.